This is a transcript. For the video, see Integrating DevOps into Your Organization DevOps is a culture, not a Technology.

[00:00:00] Michael Meyers: Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Tag1 Team Talks, the podcast and blog of Tag1 Consulting. Today, we're going to be talking about integrating DevOps into your organization. I'm Michael Meyers, the managing director atTag1, and I'm joined by Karyn Cassio, a DevOps engineer at DaVita.

[00:00:18] Karyn, welcome. And thank you so much for joining us.

[00:00:22] Karyn Cassio: Thank you so much for having me, very exciting.

[00:00:24] Michael Meyers: Could you introduce yourself real quick? Just tell us a little bit about yourself, a little bit about DaVita it's it's an amazing company and what you do there.

[00:00:35] Karyn Cassio: Sure. so I'm Karyn Cassio. I live in the Denver area.

[00:00:39] I have been in IT for many, many, many years. I've gone everywhere from being a system administrator to a website, backend developer in Drupal to now a DevOps Engineer. I had a friend introduce me to DevOps. Five or six years ago now. And it seemed to me that made perfect sense in my career direction, good marriage between system administration and development. Love both ends muted a little bit of both.

[00:01:09] So it gives me that combination. I've been at DaVita for four and a half years, well, a little over four years. And I've been a DevOps engineer at DaVita the whole time, even though it's been a developing technology at DaVita or mindset, sorry, not technology. and DaVita is like the number one or number two kidney care company in the world.

[00:01:34] We have like 75,000 employees. So a lot of people come up to me. Do you know, My friend, Joe, DaVita. I'm like, no, I don't even know most of IT. Let alone anybody in the clinics. Like I know one person in the clinic by proxy because I know his wife, that's it. We are Fortune I thought it was than lower than 500.

[00:02:02] But I keep forgetting those healthcare provider, $12 billion market cap. And, I think our IT itself is like 1500 employees. Something like that. It's huge. So we've got multiple, multiple programs we're running. I touch a very small piece of that.

[00:02:25] Michael Meyers: Fortune 500 companies is huge. Yeah.

[00:02:29] Seventy-five thousand employees. you know, it's gotta be exciting to be a part of, you know, very mission driven organization. You know, as you said, you know, IT is, is a portion of that and, and you're working on a portion of that. Can you give us a little insight into, you know, how you fit into the organization?

[00:02:45] You know, what kinds of teams or sites or applications you're working on?

[00:02:50] Karyn Cassio: Absolutely. So my current title is a DevOps Engineer, but I work on the enablement team. Basically our job is to kind of bring in the message of DevOps and the DevOps culture. We're working to transition the teams to understand what DevOps is, make sure that this guy that's been doing system administration for 20 years.

[00:03:16] It doesn't feel like he's going to lose his job tomorrow. We're not trying to automate him out of the job we're trying to, or her we're trying to. Bring them forward so that they continue to grow their career, grow their mindset, grow their knowledge, and get on board with where we're going forward. We're not trying to push anyone out and there's a lot of fear with that.

[00:03:35] With DevOps like, Oh, you're trying to automate me out of a job. And it's like, maybe automating you into a new job. How can you transition your job to make it more repeatable? I work, like I said, on the DevOps team, it's actually its own lane where it was, we've been integrated back into the operations infrastructure team, to make sure that we are really partnering with them.

[00:03:56] Um, we mostly support a program called CWOW, which has clinics without walls. Right now, You go into any of the clinics and they've got individual servers and they're manually putting in all these things and they've got, I'm not a clinician. So I'm speaking from things I've learned at this point. They've got multiple screens that you have to go input this things and then put things down on paper and it's tediousness.

[00:04:23] And then if somebody goes to another, they go travel. So they want to go to another DaVita center to get treatment. They have to fax the big pile of paperwork or email, a big pile of paperwork. And I think, I think fax is the secure way of sending information these days still, which is scary in and of itself.

[00:04:43] And rather than that, Center Without Walls is aiming to consolidate all these different programs. And so if, if you have to go and get treatment somewhere else and you can travel, you can travel and they'll bring up the program and boom, they put your whole treatment plan. The thing with a kidney patient is they have to go through two or three times a week, multiple hours.

[00:05:07] So this really, as you can imagine, changes their life, right? It's like, Oh, I can't really travel. Cause that place doesn't have a center. I have to worry about getting my records and you don't want to go without treatment because that could be lethal. Right? So we're working, not me specifically. Our developers are working on custom code to build the center without walls.

[00:05:31] We call it CWOW, and we're trying to enable it through the Dev Ops mindset. And so we're really shifting that.

[00:05:39] Michael Meyers: That's, that's amazing. I mean, to know what you're doing and working on, it's helping so many people, I read that there's, you know, hundreds of thousands of patients, you know, DaVita going to something like that.

[00:05:52] Almost 3000 outpatient centers. so you know, this, this has a huge impact, on, on a lot of people. And, yeah, I can't imagine having to do all that paperwork repeatedly for something that, you know, you need to survive. This is a really cool application and use of technology. When you first arrived at DaVita four and a half years ago, were they, you know, were they doing Dev Ops at that point? Is, is Dev Ops something that, you know, has taken off since you've been there?

[00:06:20] Give us a little sort of background on, you know, where things were before we jump into where they are and how we got here.

[00:06:27] Karyn Cassio: Yeah, absolutely. So I was hired as a DevOps engineer to the SDLC team for four and a half years ago, and. we were doing a, what I called DevOps-ish, a workflow we were trying, we were a very small section of the IT, O & I group.

[00:06:52] And we were kind of pushing uphill. We had these great ideas for testing, automated testing pipeline, et cetera. We had the tools in place. We had Jenkins. We had all the Atlassian tools. But getting the developers on board, we weren't getting a lot of support from above. They loved our team, but somehow we were supposed to push it up and it wasn't a partnership.

[00:07:17] And for a good two, two and a half years of me being here, we've been in that we were in that mindset that our leadership changed a couple of years ago. Our senior VP, I believe was his title left. and his focus was a little different. I know. and we got two new senior directors and they both lived at the DevOps world.

[00:07:41] One guy actually came from Google. He's since gotten back to Google, but he was able to shift. He created the DevOps lane and they started shifting us to, this is the way we want to go. We want to adopt Google. We got -------. and that was, that took multiple years just to get those contracts signed because it was all the legalese.

[00:08:02] How are you going to protect our data? There's this HIPAA standards. We can't be just throwing stuff out there to the web. and the choice finally came that we got the Google to agree on certain legalese right. We'll protect this much. We'll give you that much. I don't know the details. I that's. Way above my pay grade.

[00:08:21] Um, it sounds, I'm not interested in coming because it's too much for me. And he really started, he started having meetings. He created the enablement team. Training was always an afterthought before, like I had been on teams to try to push training, but it was kind of your compliance training. And if you have some time after hours go and do this other training, because that's a lot to ask people.

[00:08:44] It's like, Hey, work your butt off for 45, 50 hours a week and then go do training afterwards. It's great. When you're 21, not so great. When you're a little older, it's like, I'm tired of that. I'd like to go walk my dog and stare at a television and do nothing for a few hours. I don't want to work still. So we've moved to learning is okay.

[00:09:06] It's okay to learn. It's okay to fail. We have a lot of people who. There's a lot of teammates, what we call employees that are still learning that it's okay to fail. You can't grow without failure. I've always said that, especially in IT. You really don't know it until you break it. Like I can follow somebody else's code, but until I blow it, I really don't know it.

[00:09:30] And this goes the same for DevOps. So we, we have really moved from just playing with some of the tools to really trying to push Google cloud.

[00:09:42] Michael Meyers: What kind of tools do you guys work with? Some, a tech stack, you know, are these all internal systems, are they running on proprietary, you know, codes or, you know, what are you using for, you know, your tool chain?

[00:09:56] Karyn Cassio: So the code that the CWOW platform is built on is all proprietary. It's all custom built. A lot of JavaScript. Yeah. JavaScript. I don't write it. The front end kind of amazes me cause we did look through the front end one day and it was like 5,000 lines of code for the login page. Hopefully they've cleaned it up since then.

[00:10:17] I don't know. behind the scenes we're using, we're still using a lot of on-prem stuff. trying to move more to the cloud, like I said, in the cloud were using GCP, Terraform, and GitLab, pipelines, but we're still having to move a lot of stuff. That's on-prem off-prem so it's a slow process.

[00:10:35] Moving on, microservices off to the cloud. incorporating the pipeline. On-prem we're building in Puppet. We're using Morpheus for our custom cloud on-prem cloud. And we're using Jenkins for our pipelines and a lot of different Jenkins pipelines in a lot of different servers and good luck finding your server, right?

[00:11:00] Like if I'm on X team, I know X's server, but as somebody says to me to go to another Jenkins server, I may not even have permission. We're trying to get things where people could shift easily and it wouldn't be this whole brand new system you have to learn. So we're trying to move that. And I know I'm not using the big words that come in DevOps, we're trying to make it understandable for everybody.

[00:11:22] Michael Meyers And that's great because you know, you know that every time I talk to somebody, I feel like there's an onslaught of new things that I've never heard of that they're, you know, it's, it's exciting. You know, the pace of innovation in our world is, is great. On one hand, on the other, you know, you really need to be very domain specific to really have any level of, you know, knowledge to any level of depth with these systems. And, you know, I, you know, come in and out of different projects and talk to different peoples and, you know, I, yeah, I'm just blown away. and then I meet them again and they're talking about totally different things like a month later, so

[00:12:01] Karyn Cassio: It's exciting and it is exhausting.

[00:12:05] Michael Meyers: Yeah. It's, it's, you know, you got to focus, to really dig into stuff. So, so you know, how does, how does the build process work now? Like, you know, how are you guys using DevOps today? How did you get there?

[00:12:16] Karyn Cassio: So we, so we had, we had the change of leadership, which really brought it home. So we're having a lot of meetings, a lot of learning activities, trying to push the new mindset.

[00:12:35] We have a team called Cloud Foundations, so they're kind of building in the processes and building in the rules. And now us as enablement are trying to push out those rules. We have our SRE team trying to support those rules. We have, actually a member of our SRE team is building really complex monitoring tools.

[00:12:56] So we can monitor these things because before we didn't really have eyes on this stuff, it would crash. And we were just helpful that someone would, could find the problem. And it was always, Hey, you guys, you guys an SDLC fix it? What's your code doing? I don't know.. we're trying to make sure that all the systems along the line or what we were using puppet on prem to make sure we build our servers the same.

[00:13:22] A lot of our tools, servers are the same, but the dev, the devs weren't using that. So it was like, well, it works on this server, but not that server. We all heard that one before. So we're trying to get our environment to match. He said we're using GitLab and Terraform and the GitLab pipelines to check the code now. And honestly, I'm not a hundred percent sure how incorporated all of the devs are. I know there are certain dev teams that are really starting to use the tools that are really starting to push out. And they're really supporting the GCP tools. I'm not sure that it's a hundred percent the development.

[00:14:04] Like I said, I don't specifically touch that because I'm an enablement team, but we are, we've got more training tools on onsite, which doesn't really address how we're doing Dev Ops, but. I'm a little bit removed from that hands-on these days. I do try to keep myself in the tech stack a little bit because I don't want to lose all of my tech knowledge.

[00:14:25] I'm not sure if that answered the question.

[00:14:27] Michael Meyers: Yeah. So tell me more about this enablement team, because to me, it's we work with a lot of fortune 500 companies and it's, it's amazing. You know, you talked about this infrastructure that needs to be able to replicate across a large number of teams and groups need to have access.

[00:14:44] They need to be able to shift across things like the kinds of things that you need to deal with at the level and scale you're operating at are, are very unique to sort of these classes of companies. and so, you know, I love this idea of an enablement team, helping people be successful in this environment.

[00:15:03] So, you know, talk me through what it is that, that your team is doing. and to move this forward.

[00:15:11] **Karyn Cassio:**It's a great question. So have always been a big advocate of training. Like I said, I was on teams even before we had this team trying to push training. It's a real paradigm shift at DaVita, actually to do other things than just compliance.

[00:15:27] It's always been a conversation. Oh yeah, you should definitely go do the training, but I was no, when I was in open source, it was, Hey, go to this conference, go to that conference. Encourage, encourage, encourage, if you could do, if you can be a speaker that would come up with something to speak about. Right.

[00:15:44] But here I couldn't even like, Oh yeah, this is free conference. You can go to that one. That's good. Enablement came from our leadership. He created the team when it first came about, I was a little apprehensive I'm like, what does that mean? What does that is that you've just taken me out of the tech stack.

[00:16:03] This is a cut to me. It wasn't. What it was I had created a community of practice meetings that happens every two weeks and it was supposed to be for SRE team. And we ended up growing it to where the whole operations and infrastructure team is invited and comes. So what enablement does is we kind of take TOP to the next level.

[00:16:26] So we make sure that those TOPs are happening every two weeks. But that's the basic site where we're bringing in training. We're creating training videos internally. We're creating up a training space. We created learning paths. We're doing presentations. we're going to like leadership meeting and trying to get leadership on board.

[00:16:48] We've been told from upper above. ONI above our team that Dev Ops isn't something we can do at DaVita. Like we couldn't do agile. I don't believe this to be a true statement, but it's something we obviously are still pushing up. Right. So enablement, our job is to really get CWOW, and everybody associated with CWOW in the same mindset with whatever it takes to get there without, you know, forcing them to go that way.

[00:17:20] Right. So we want it to be a choice. So here's your opportunities. Here's the ways you could do it. Here's some opportunities to learn. Now if they choose not to take those opportunities, that's really on them. Right. I mean, you can't force someone to take a training, but here it's available.

[00:17:38] You're welcome to have it. You might really want to consider it if you'd really like DaVita. And DaVita has a very strong culture. People who are there, who are happy. There are very happy there. I'm very happy there. I really like the culture. You'll hear some people say it's a cult. It's not a cult, but it is definitely a strong culture.

[00:18:00] And a lot of that comes from the clinics, right? They want the client clinicians to feel, feel like part of a bigger thing, which they are, but it's very hard to see it when you're in a clinic taking care of patients all day. I'm sure. I mean, I'm not that kind of person. I couldn't do that all day, but they rolled downhill or uphill.

[00:18:20] We want them to be, feel like a bigger thing. And we do, it's very caring, very caring culture. In the past, IT didn't really feel like part of that culture. And we're just trying to push that, spread the wealth and know that everybody we want you here. We want you to be part of the team, but we want you to grow with the team.

[00:18:37] This is a growth opportunity, and enablement is enabling that and enabling the message. And we just keep repeating what DevOps can do. A repeatability, ease of use, not ease of use. I can't say easy, not easy, but if you can catch on and you don't have to eat the whole elephant kind of thing, right. You do one piece at a time and we're trying to give them, feed them the pieces so they can learn and move forward.

[00:19:06] I think more teams need this.

[00:19:08] Michael Meyers: Yeah, no, I mean, you're, you know, you're, you're enabling people, you have, you know development teams, the technology groups, you have management teams, you have, you know, people across these 3000, you know patient care facilities. I mean the different types of groups and the different approaches that you, I would imagine you take.

[00:19:27] You know, with each of these groups, I, you know, complicates an already challenging process. I would imagine. what, like, what are some of the biggest challenges in, trying to enable this culture? Is it the fact that you're fighting all of, you know, on all of these? I shouldn't say enabling on all of these fronts, is it, you know, the fact that, you know, you, you mentioned earlier, you know, it's probably all of these things you mentioned earlier, how, like you're coming into groups in departments and they've done things for a certain way, for a certain period of time.

[00:19:58] And like everybody were resistant to change at first, you know? I mean, I, I'm overwhelmed just listening to you. Tell me about all the different ways that you're, you're approaching this. I'm curious, like, you know, what are some of the, that, you know, had to pick some of the biggest challenges that you're trying to overcome on this front?

[00:20:16] What are they?

[00:20:16] Karyn Cassio: I'd say one of the biggest is. Well, the whole company is doing this the whole, IT is not doing this. We have a lot of legacy stuff and they swear they can't do this. it's convincing people what it is. So like I said, we created a Dev Ops lane, probably not the best idea, but I kind of understand why they did it.

[00:20:38], DevOps isn't, isn't a , technology, right? It's, it'sit's the culture. And we're trying to explain that. So, I mean, we'll talk to some groups and they're like, well, you know, I handed it over to Dev Ops and it disappeared. And it was like, well, first off you can't hand it to DevOps.

[00:21:01] Cause it's not a entity. It's, it's a culture. So. Trying to get people to really get as a, as a team, as a mindset, trying to get everybody to understand it's a culture and it's actually a supportive culture and it's allowing people to grow. It's not trying to take away jobs. There are people who've been here a long time and they're very protective of their jobs and very protective of their technology.

[00:21:32] And they can't see because they don't see the big picture and they haven't done the research or paid as close attention. Like, okay, I heard them talking about Dev Ops, but that's their problem. That's their technologies not my technology. So we suddenly come in and we're really yelling from the rooftops. We're going to Dev Ops.

[00:21:55] I'm going to lose my job. And that's the biggest one. Like, well, It doesn't really affect me, or I could see why that team would do it, but I don't know why it would, I would do it because it's always worked the way I've done it. I, I just build these servers and I don't really need to worry about it. Why would I put infrastructure in code?

[00:22:15] That's not a thing. Well, it is. No, it's not. I just build a server. I, why would I put that in a repo? What is a repo? Like we have people who don't have Git. We have teams that are still in SVN. I didn't even know anyone was using that anymore. I literally did not. I honestly thought everybody was on Git and all the other stuff had gone away because why would you. And they've got teams.

[00:22:38] They're like, well, we, we're not really. We kind of use a repo. We're using SVN. So I don't know why we'd want to change. We thought about changing. So we're going to go ahead and install our own GitLab. Well, why would you do that? We already have one that's let's centralize it. Let's. Let's all work together.

[00:22:57] It's like, if your team's doing that, but our team doing that, maybe we should collaborate and see which ones learn a little bit from each other, which is why I did the COPs. So we can have people share what their team's working on and you get teams going, Oh, we were doing something like that. Maybe we can work together.

[00:23:14] It's like, ah, there you go. Let's get this to where I could switch teams tomorrow and not be completely lost and have to start from scratch. This can be one big team. Like we are. I mean, one of the big one for all is our big saying, right? Three Musketeers and one seeing that online, really we need to get there. So we're all working on the same thing and to, one of my teammates put out a presentation about, we want to make every piece, not so tied into every other piece.

[00:23:52] So every piece of the development right now is so tied in that if one piece breaks there's you can't just slot things in and out. So, which is why they cannot do- excuse me, continuous deployments. Right now we have like one deployment every quarter or something. These major weekend long deployments, which is something we would love to see us get away from. But because everything's so tied in, it has to be this whole big thing.

[00:24:22] And we don't have, we're still working towards good integrated testing. So this guy had this one working, this woman had this one working. Now we integrate it. And the whole thing blows up. We're trying to move that. So that's, that's another huge hurdle is like, how do we split this stuff off so I can throw this piece in like its own module and it'll work and not kill the rest of the, won't topple the dominoes. Right?

[00:24:52] Michael Meyers: Yeah. It's I love how you phrase it with, you know, Dev Ops is a culture and not a technology. And again, it goes back for me, like when you're working in a small organization, a lot of people are very focused on the technology and, you know, it's sort of, you know, the lines are very blurred because, you know, you know, they're not seeing things from the bigger perspective of, you know, engineering change in this massive organization.

[00:25:21] You know, it is a culture that's facilitated by technology and it's a mindset. So it's, I, when you said that, it kind of really clicked with me, you know, to think of it that way. And, you know, cause even when we're within a big organization yeah. We're working on a project or a couple of projects. And we don't, you know, we work with these kinds of teams like enablement teams and whatnot, but, but don't have your perspective and it really just hit me as, you know, as a wow moment there.

[00:25:49] How do you, how do you engineer this change? I'm wondering, like you talked about meeting with people and these training materials, like, are you using an LMS? Is it like primarily meeting people in person? Like, can I, I can access, you know, these things online? Like how does, you know, if I'm someone that you're, you know, you're trying to lobby for change or help transition?

[00:26:11] How does that work from, from my perspective?

[00:26:15] Karyn Cassio: So we have a lot of team meetings because it's really hard to do one-on-one. One of the people on my team he's really, really good at speaking puts me to shame, almost brought him on this meeting, but I'm like, still I'm doing it. I can do this, but he will actually meet one-on-one or he'll meet with management.

[00:26:36] He gets invited to some of the bigger leadership meetings and he really can advocate, when it comes to the developers. And like, I mean, our SRE team is very Dev Ops focused and we're the team that's been working on this for years. So it was a natural progression for us to be specific. SRE. I say we - I'm attached to that team.

[00:26:59] We have the same] manager that I used to be in the SRA. That's why I keep saying we, but I'm not officially, even though I stayed in touch with them. So SRE is definitely very DevOps oriented, but the rest of the organization is still learning. Making that shift and cloud foundation's very dev ops, obviously.

[00:27:18] So our two teams that are kind of advocating, advocating, advocating. but yeah, so we'll have group presentations. We are, creating, creating, learning paths that are very, very specific. So we started our first learning path with Git repos, like really just explaining what Git is. And then we had like one windows person and say, well, this doesn't really apply to me because I don't know how to, you can't install Git on Windows. And it was like, huh, I don't even know what that means because of course you can. I mean, you can use the UI if you so pleased.

[00:27:56] I don't, but you know, I have had developers say, Hey Karyn, how do I get this to work in the UI? And I'm like, Couldn't tell ya, I've never used a Git UI. Keep forgetting those exist. So we have people in every level of understanding and the technology stack. So we're having to start from the beginning.

[00:28:17] So we have classes where it's self-driven, we're offering like Coursera courses that we've done through Google and Coursera. Those are by invitation only. We, you have access to quick labs so people can self-driven they can run these classes. So we're offering training, we're offering group training.

[00:28:36] We have one of our teams who goes up to leadership and he will be presenting, presenting, where they say you have to repeat something seven, three to seven times or something before people even hear it. So we just keep repeating. What, what our goals are, what dev ops is, what we're trying to do here, and that you're not going to lose your job tomorrow, that we're not trying to code you out of a job.

[00:28:59] So it's just constant repetition

[00:29:04] Michael Meyers: So, where, you know, where is this going and where do you like, want it to be in the future? So sort of like short term, where do you see, you know, things going and say the next year? And if you could dream big, you know, what do you wish will happen?

[00:29:20] You know, two, three years down the line.

[00:29:24] Karyn Cassio: So within the next year, I'd love to see us getting into all the clinics with the CWOW program. I think that's the plan, but I would love to see a whole CWOW program that, which has to there's some stuff in the stay on prem, obviously, but most of it into the cloud.

[00:29:43] Have our pipeline set up, but definitely would love to see. And I don't know the timelines on these, but I definitely want to see the more often releases late right now. It's big chunk releases. Hey, we just said, we've got this really small UI change. Let's push it out. When the clinics close at midnight, we can just turn it on.

[00:30:07] Turn the switch a bit. They're understanding that that just because you push it out, doesn't mean it goes active and it doesn't mean we can't respond. We can't roll it back because bringing down a clinic is not optional. We do have to figure out how to get the stuff. Get these releases working within the clinics timeframes without having people working 48 hours on a weekend. We brought our releases down in time. So people aren't spending literally 48 hours on these calls, but I would love to see it to where it's, it's a no brainer. Hey, we need to push out this little, fix this little fix. and then after we've got CWOW fully automated and prove the point, love to see us expand the dev ops culture to the rest of IT.

[00:31:01] It's a ways from that. If you read the Phoenix project, which most dev ops engineers have, or at least have heard of it, they started with the, the one product line right on their, their shift. And they always say start small, right? Take one project. CWOW is a great place to start. Because it it's going to be worldwide.

[00:31:24] And why would you want that to be on prem? No, I'm in Seattle, but I'm actually at a clinic in Africa. I would like that to be, you know, in Africa or wherever. I don't think there are GCP in Africa, but you know, somewhere closer than coming from Seattle. And if something breaks in Seattle, we're done. that's where some, one of our, server farms is.

[00:31:45] So I would love it to be expanded to the rest of it. And people would understand that this can be done even in medical field.

[00:31:56] Well, I think that having a huge success story with CWOW will really get the rest of the organization on board. And it, it sounds like you're, you're really heading in that direction.

[00:32:06] Michael Meyers: I'd love to have you back and get an update to see how things are going in the future. This is, this is really exciting, you know, to, to be able to do this. You know, one in a large organization, but two in a way, that's going to have a very meaningful impact on, you know, people live and save lives. I mean, it's, it's crazy, you know, it's really fulfilling, I think, to work on, you know, I enjoy a lot of the projects we worked on, but there's something, you know, special and so much more rewarding about this kind of project.

[00:32:36] So, yeah. Thank you.

[00:32:39] Karyn Cassio: You're welcome.

[00:32:39] Michael Meyers: All righty. My pleasure. We're going to wrap up, we're out of time. i really appreciate you joining us, Karyn. Really appreciate everyone tuning in to listen. if you liked this talk, please remember to upvote, subscribe and share it out. We need to spread the word about dev ops and taking dev ops as a culture, not just the technology.

[00:32:59] You can check out our past Tag1 Team Talks at As always, we'd love your feedback on today's show, as well as input and ideas for future topics. You can email us at And again, thank you very much, Kary n. Really appreciate it. we'll talk to you soon.

[00:33:21] Take care everybody.

[00:33:22] Karyn Cassio: Thank you.